(En ESPAÑOL debajo)

Same people called this read like, THE PIT BULL READ 2014

Some people or “breeders” sometimes tend to misconduct with other breeders, by false gossip invent hoaxes to discredit subtly in one way or another way others breeders who work dogs with genetics to consider too competitive with which they breed, and  them want to remove from among a vile and petty manner. It also often happens that some people wish to discredit the Official Pedigree of the breed (ADBA) because their dogs do not have it, then also inventing lies and gossip hoaxes to discredit intelligent and subtly the effectiveness of the Official Pedigree of the breed, thinking that if they get it, his mixed dogs in most cases, would be revalued in the eyes of fans with little experience in the breed. For a proper protection and right promotion of the breed, unfortunately I fear that we must seriously consider this last, to find a logical answer to this whole thing, which is not sufficiently clear nor clean.

 

To put an example of easy understanding about this last, I add then a private full discussion of the Online Pedigrees but with different names of the users involved in this debate, for not to feel them uncomfortable and annoying to see that the private debate is now displayed in public. This debate comes in handy to understand what I am referring, specifically between the contacts between users known as Mrs. X and Villaliberty, this last obviously is a server. Mrs. X as you will see in the debate, is dedicated to intelligent and very subtly to discredit the honest old timers and also some breeders of nowadays (including a server) that we Registered our dogs in the ADBA. Mrs. X also is dedicated to intelligent and very subtly to discredit to the Official Pedigree of the Breed in International scope, I mean to the ADBA pedigree, so that in this "intelligent" and subtle way runs like wildfire among fans around the world a series of hoaxes and false gossip like if it were a truth, gossip and false hoaxes that go with bad intention against the fans and against the breed itself.

 

This debate is one of the most read and transited by the users around the world in Online Pedigrees, which I have to say, that it inspired me to carry out this report that I add then and therefore, I am satisfied and grateful to this debate, which I think can be a great complement to this report entitled: Whence comes the BLACK color to ELI / CARVER / BOUDREAUX dogs, being that they all are Tudor's "DIBO" family and "DIBO" was buckskin color? - The HENRY´s Dogs http://www.fiapbt.net/black.html (By Mariano Peinado)

 

ESPAÑOL

Algunos aficionados, han denominado a esta lectura como, EL ESCRITO DEL PIT BULL 2014

Algunas personas o “criadores” algunas veces suelen tener mala intención con otros criadores, por medio de chismes falsos inventan bulos para desacreditar sutilmente de una u otra manera aquellos criadores que trabajan genéticas que consideran demasiado competitivas con las que ellos crían, y desean quitárselas de en medio de una manera ruin y mezquina. También suele ocurrir, que algunas personas desean desacreditar el pedigree Oficial de la raza (ADBA) porque sus perros no lo tienen, entonces igualmente por medio de mentiras y chismes inventan bulos para desacreditar inteligente y sutilmente la efectividad del pedigree Oficial de la raza, pensando que si lo consiguen, sus perros mestizos en la mayoría de los casos, se revalorizarían ante los ojos de los aficionados con poca experiencia en la raza. Para una adecuada protección y correcta promoción de la raza, lamentablemente me temo que debemos tener en cuenta muy seriamente esto último, para poder encontrar una lógica respuesta a todo este asunto, el cual no es lo bastante claro ni limpio.

 

Por poner un ejemplo de fácil entendimiento a cerca de esto último, a continuación añado íntegramente un debate privado en ingles del Online Pedigrees pero con diferentes nombres de los usuarios que intervienen dentro de dicho debate, para que no se sientan incomodos ni molestos al observar que dicho debate privado ahora se muestra en público. Este debate viene como anillo al dedo para comprender a lo que me estoy refiriendo, concretamente entre los contactos mantenidos entre los usuarios denominados como Mrs. X y villaliberty, este último obviamente se trata de un servidor. Mrs. X como podrán comprobar dentro del debate, se dedica a desacreditar inteligente y muy sutilmente a los honestos criadores de antaño y algunos de la actualidad (incluido un servidor) que registramos nuestros perros en la ADBA. Mrs. X igualmente se dedica a desacreditar inteligente y muy sutilmente el Pedigree Oficial de la raza en ámbito Internacional, me refiero al Pedigree de la ADBA, para que de esta manera “inteligente” y sutil corra como la pólvora entre los aficionados de todo el mundo una serie de chismes y falsos bulos como si de una verdad se tratara, chismes y falsos bulos que van con muy mala intención en contra de los aficionados y en contra de la propia raza.

 

Este debate es uno de los más leídos y transitados por los usuarios de todo el mundo del Online Pedigrees, el cual he de decir, que me sirvió de inspiración para la realización de un reportaje que adjunto a continuación y por tanto, me siento satisfecho y agradecido con este debate, que creo que puede ser un estupendo complemento para este reportaje titulado: ¿De dónde le viene el color NEGRO a los perros ELI / CARVER / BOUDREAUX, siendo que todos ellos son de la familia de Tudor´s “DIBO” y este era de color buckskin? - LOS PERROS DE HENRY http://www.fiapbt.net/negro.html (Por Mariano Peinado)

 

----------------------------------------------------

  Online Pedigrees Debate entitled HISTORY ON ELI/CARVER By Mr. D

Debate del Online Pedigrees titulado HISTORY ON ELI/CARVER Por Mr. D

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 HISTORY ON ELI/CARVER (PAG 1)

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deadend
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:54 am

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I HAVE DECIDED TO POST A LITTLE HISTORY ON THE ELI/CARVER CROSS,BUT WHEN I SAY CROSS IM BASICALLY MEANING INBRED ON A (DOMINATE TRAIT). OKAY NOW WHEN IT COMES TO ELI CARVER SOME PEOPLE WONDER WHY THIS CROSS WORKS SO WELL. IM GONNA START OFF WITH THE BOUDREAUX LINE, FLOYD STARTED WITH BLINDBILLY AS HIS STUD DOG AND IN MY BOOK YOU COULDN'T ASK FOR BETTER DIBO BLOOD. BLINDBILLY'S SIRE WAS TUDOR'S DIBO AND HIS DAM WAS TUDORS MIMMIE WHICH WAS A DAUGHTER OF CH. ARIZONA PETE WICH WAS A LITTERMATE BROTHER TO DIBO BUT A PROVEN CH. ,PETE WAS BRED BACK TO HIS AND DIBOS MOTHER BAMBI TO PRODUCE MIMMIE.SO BLINDBILLY'S GENETICS CONSISTED OF THE PERFORMANCE AND PRODUCTIVITY, PETE WAS A PROVEN CHAMP AND DIBO WAS A PROVEN PRODUCER, SO FLOYD MADE A WISE CHOICE USING BLINDBILLY AS HIS FOUNDATION STUD.TO SUM IT UP BLINDBILLY WAS A RESULT OF DIBO BRED BACK TO HIS NEICE. NOW I'M GONNA SHIFT OVER TO THE CARVER BLOOD, THE FOUNDATION TO THE CARVER BLOOD IS WHEN HE BRED DIBO TO BLACKWIDOW BACK THEN CARVER NOTICE THAT THE DIBO/BLACKWIDOW BREEDING PRODUCED ALOTS OF LATE STARTERS, WHICH DIBO DIDNOT CRANK UNTIL HE WAS THREE YEARS OLD SO TO ILLIMUNATE THIS HE CROSSED HIS DIBO /BLACKWIDOW BLOOD INTO THE ED. CRENSHAW BLOOD. IT BASICALLY GAVE HIS BLOOD WHAT IT NEEDED. BOTH BREEDERS STARTED WITH CONCENTRATED DIBO BLOOD, FLOYD'S FOUNDATION WAS DIBO BRED BACK TO HIS NEICE(BLINDBILLY) & CARVERS FOUNDATION WAS DIBO BRED BACK TO HIS GRANDAUGHTER( CARVER'S DEE, AND HER LITTERMATES THAT CAME FROM THAT PARTICULAR BREEDING THAT WAS USED, CARVER ALSO CROSSED HIS DIBO/BLACKWIDOW BLOOD INTO THE HEINZL BLOOD COMING THREW FRITZWATER'S GOLDIE AND DID SUPERER WELL. SO BOTH BREEDERS STARTED OUT HEAVY ON THE DIBO BLOOD AND WHEN DOG MEN HAVE TAKEN THE TWO STRAINS AND CROSS THEM TOGETHER ALL THE OLD TRAITS COME BACK UP FRONT. MANY BREEDERS HAVE FOUND THIER LINE OF CHOICE THREW THIS CROSS, TO NAME A FEW, RONALD BOYLES, TOM GARNER ALTHOUGH HE DIDNOT BREED CHINAMAN, ALSO GR CH. SPIKE.LOPASAY'S BUSTER, GRND. CH. RAGHEAD, THERE ARE MANY OTHER GREAT ELI/CARVER DOGS THAT I DIDNOT MENTION THAT WERE BRED AND LEFT AN IMPACT ON THE GAME. ONE THING I CAN SAY ABOUT A DAM GOOD ELI/CARVER DOG,THEM MOTHER FUCKERS DONT JUST GET DOWN THEY GOT KILLING ON THIER MIND. THOSE THAT KNOW WILL AGREE 100%



Last edited by deadend on Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:16 am; edited 6 times in total

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ozone
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:59 am

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One of my favorite crosses great read too..

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:12 am

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Deadend thanks 4 run down

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:06 pm

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Real talk rite der, folks Smile

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:38 am

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http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=458062
Nuff said..

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marrero
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:56 am

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http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=290786   
Cool

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:13 pm

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http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=253956

I THINK THIS WAS A GOOD BREEDING
Shocked


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snootybulldoggs
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:33 pm

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BLOODYMESS wrote:

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=253956

I THINK THIS WAS A GOOD BREEDING
Shocked

FaSho! Good luck with Diamond bruh Wink


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:21 pm

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snootybulldoggs wrote:

BLOODYMESS wrote:

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=253956

I THINK THIS WAS A GOOD BREEDING
Shocked

FaSho! Good luck with Diamond bruh Wink



GOOD LUCK WITH THE TOP SIDE YOU MEAN.DIAMOND BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME MY FRIEND.


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Last edited by BLOODYMESS on Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:13 pm

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http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=464266

These pups are Ham!

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318DFB
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 8:47 pm

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Due any day now
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=283145

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:35 am

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BLOODYMESS wrote:

snootybulldoggs wrote:

BLOODYMESS wrote:

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=253956

I THINK THIS WAS A GOOD BREEDING
Shocked

FaSho! Good luck with Diamond bruh Wink



GOOD LUCK WITH THE TOP SIDE YOU MEAN.DIAMOND BEEN AROUND A LONG TIME MY FRIEND.

Brother Bloody I know Diamond is Good Because of theMen behind Her, would Love to raise something of her-seem like you would get bulldoggs out of her bred to a fence poll WinkI cant wait until we all can come together break bread ya know! PEACE Brethern Keep'em Coming!!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:39 am

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BOUDREAUX'S " SCRUB " WAS 93.75% BLINDBILLY
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=4088

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deadend
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:45 am

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PAPAWAY wrote:

BOUDREAUX'S " SCRUB " WAS 93.75% BLINDBILLY
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=4088

whats your point?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 12:29 am

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http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=430930
I got her an she errthang I wanted an more

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 HISTORY ON ELI/CARVER (PAG 2)

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lottie2
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:10 am

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deadend wrote:

I HAVE DECIDED TO POST A LITTLE HISTORY ON THE ELI/CARVER CROSS,BUT WHEN I SAY CROSS IM BASICALLY MEANING INBRED ON A (DOMINATE TRAIT). OKAY NOW WHEN IT COMES TO ELI CARVER SOME PEOPLE WONDER WHY THIS CROSS WORKS SO WELL. IM GONNA START OFF WITH THE BOUDREAUX LINE, FLOYD STARTED WITH BLINDBILLY AS HIS STUD DOG AND IN MY BOOK YOU COULDN'T ASK FOR BETTER DIBO BLOOD. BLINDBILLY'S SIRE WAS TUDOR'S DIBO AND HIS DAM WAS TUDORS MIMMIE WHICH WAS A DAUGHTER OF CH. ARIZONA PETE WICH WAS A LITTERMATE BROTHER TO DIBO BUT A PROVEN CH. ,PETE WAS BRED BACK TO HIS AND DIBOS MOTHER BAMBI TO PRODUCE MIMMIE.SO BLINDBILLY'S GENETICS CONSISTED OF THE PERFORMANCE AND PRODUCTIVITY, PETE WAS A PROVEN CHAMP AND DIBO WAS A PROVEN PRODUCER, SO FLOYD MADE A WISE CHOICE USING BLINDBILLY AS HIS FOUNDATION STUD.TO SUM IT UP BLINDBILLY WAS A RESULT OF DIBO BRED BACK TO HIS NEICE. NOW I'M GONNA SHIFT OVER TO THE CARVER BLOOD, THE FOUNDATION TO THE CARVER BLOOD IS WHEN HE BRED DIBO TO BLACKWIDOW BACK THEN CARVER NOTICE THAT THE DIBO/BLACKWIDOW BREEDING PRODUCED ALOTS OF LATE STARTERS, WHICH DIBO DIDNOT CRANK UNTIL HE WAS THREE YEARS OLD SO TO ILLIMUNATE THIS HE CROSSED HIS DIBO /BLACKWIDOW BLOOD INTO THE ED. CRENSHAW BLOOD. IT BASICALLY GAVE HIS BLOOD WHAT IT NEEDED. BOTH BREEDERS STARTED WITH CONCENTRATED DIBO BLOOD, FLOYD'S FOUNDATION WAS DIBO BRED BACK TO HIS NEICE(BLINDBILLY) & CARVERS FOUNDATION WAS DIBO BRED BACK TO HIS GRANDAUGHTER( CARVER'S DEE, AND HER LITTERMATES THAT CAME FROM THAT PARTICULAR BREEDING THAT WAS USED, CARVER ALSO CROSSED HIS DIBO/BLACKWIDOW BLOOD INTO THE HEINZL BLOOD COMING THREW FRITZWATER'S GOLDIE AND DID SUPERER WELL. SO BOTH BREEDERS STARTED OUT HEAVY ON THE DIBO BLOOD AND WHEN DOG MEN HAVE TAKEN THE TWO STRAINS AND CROSS THEM TOGETHER ALL THE OLD TRAITS COME BACK UP FRONT. MANY BREEDERS HAVE FOUND THIER LINE OF CHOICE THREW THIS CROSS, TO NAME A FEW, RONALD BOYLES, TOM GARNER ALTHOUGH HE DIDNOT BREED CHINAMAN, ALSO GR CH. SPIKE.LOPASAY'S BUSTER, GRND. CH. RAGHEAD, THERE ARE MANY OTHER GREAT ELI/CARVER DOGS THAT I DIDNOT MENTION THAT WERE BRED AND LEFT AN IMPACT ON THE GAME. ONE THING I CAN SAY ABOUT A DAM GOOD ELI/CARVER DOG,THEM MOTHER FUCKERS DONT JUST GET DOWN THEY GOT KILLING ON THIER MIND. THOSE THAT KNOW WILL AGREE 100%

DID NOT ASK TO SHOW YOUR PEDS ... IF YOU DO SHOW PED WHAT DID THEY DO,,, (PRODUCE) SIRE AN DAM. SCHOOL WAS IN DID YOU LEARN ANYTHING.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:08 am

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Here's my Eli/carver bitch http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=388193 ped number

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:40 am

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SHE CAN TELL A STORY HER SELF

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=388193


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:59 am

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If it ain't broke don't fix it.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=461835

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=499009

Carver implemented the Eli blood into his stock after watching Eli JR. and that prompted him to get Bullyson on his yard. When he blended the Eli into his bloodline it became another piece. In actuality the breeding's he made make it carver blood with no emphasis on Eli unless you have infused another source free of his influence. You could say Butcherboy x Carver just as easily. All the winning dogs he could get his hands on in those days got blended in. Including Mayfields stuff thru the Nigger dog. Those same combinations from the rite place continue to impress but it wasn't just Eli its the combo. Arts Missy and Miss Spike where probably more influential in the good ones that left his yard. Infact Ed Crenshaw probably had more to do with Carvers success than Carver did himself.



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:11 am

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lottie2 wrote:

klow wrote:

Here's my Eli/carver bitch 388193 ped number




SHE CAN TELL A STORY HER SELF

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=388193

Facts.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 10:42 am

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:08 pm

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deadend wrote:

I HAVE DECIDED TO POST A LITTLE HISTORY ON THE ELI/CARVER CROSS,BUT WHEN I SAY CROSS IM BASICALLY MEANING INBRED ON A (DOMINATE TRAIT). OKAY NOW WHEN IT COMES TO ELI CARVER SOME PEOPLE WONDER WHY THIS CROSS WORKS SO WELL. IM GONNA START OFF WITH THE BOUDREAUX LINE, FLOYD STARTED WITH BLINDBILLY AS HIS STUD DOG AND IN MY BOOK YOU COULDN'T ASK FOR BETTER DIBO BLOOD. BLINDBILLY'S SIRE WAS TUDOR'S DIBO AND HIS DAM WAS TUDORS MIMMIE WHICH WAS A DAUGHTER OF CH. ARIZONA PETE WICH WAS A LITTERMATE BROTHER TO DIBO BUT A PROVEN CH. ,PETE WAS BRED BACK TO HIS AND DIBOS MOTHER BAMBI TO PRODUCE MIMMIE.SO BLINDBILLY'S GENETICS CONSISTED OF THE PERFORMANCE AND PRODUCTIVITY, PETE WAS A PROVEN CHAMP AND DIBO WAS A PROVEN PRODUCER, SO FLOYD MADE A WISE CHOICE USING BLINDBILLY AS HIS FOUNDATION STUD.TO SUM IT UP BLINDBILLY WAS A RESULT OF DIBO BRED BACK TO HIS NEICE. NOW I'M GONNA SHIFT OVER TO THE CARVER BLOOD, THE FOUNDATION TO THE CARVER BLOOD IS WHEN HE BRED DIBO TO BLACKWIDOW BACK THEN CARVER NOTICE THAT THE DIBO/BLACKWIDOW BREEDING PRODUCED ALOTS OF LATE STARTERS, WHICH DIBO DIDNOT CRANK UNTIL HE WAS THREE YEARS OLD SO TO ILLIMUNATE THIS HE CROSSED HIS DIBO /BLACKWIDOW BLOOD INTO THE ED. CRENSHAW BLOOD. IT BASICALLY GAVE HIS BLOOD WHAT IT NEEDED. BOTH BREEDERS STARTED WITH CONCENTRATED DIBO BLOOD, FLOYD'S FOUNDATION WAS DIBO BRED BACK TO HIS NEICE(BLINDBILLY) & CARVERS FOUNDATION WAS DIBO BRED BACK TO HIS GRANDAUGHTER( CARVER'S DEE, AND HER LITTERMATES THAT CAME FROM THAT PARTICULAR BREEDING THAT WAS USED, CARVER ALSO CROSSED HIS DIBO/BLACKWIDOW BLOOD INTO THE HEINZL BLOOD COMING THREW FRITZWATER'S GOLDIE AND DID SUPERER WELL. SO BOTH BREEDERS STARTED OUT HEAVY ON THE DIBO BLOOD AND WHEN DOG MEN HAVE TAKEN THE TWO STRAINS AND CROSS THEM TOGETHER ALL THE OLD TRAITS COME BACK UP FRONT. MANY BREEDERS HAVE FOUND THIER LINE OF CHOICE THREW THIS CROSS, TO NAME A FEW, RONALD BOYLES, TOM GARNER ALTHOUGH HE DIDNOT BREED CHINAMAN, ALSO GR CH. SPIKE.LOPASAY'S BUSTER, GRND. CH. RAGHEAD, THERE ARE MANY OTHER GREAT ELI/CARVER DOGS THAT I DIDNOT MENTION THAT WERE BRED AND LEFT AN IMPACT ON THE GAME. ONE THING I CAN SAY ABOUT A DAM GOOD ELI/CARVER DOG,THEM MOTHER FUCKERS DONT JUST GET DOWN THEY GOT KILLING ON THIER MIND. THOSE THAT KNOW WILL AGREE 100%

WHAT'S ALREADY UNDERSTOOD DOESN'T NEED TO BE EXSPLAINED!! GREAT POST!!!!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2014 4:05 am

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One good animal http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=360771

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Mrs. X
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:24 pm

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Already wrote:

WHAT'S ALREADY UNDERSTOOD DOESN'T NEED TO BE EXSPLAINED!! GREAT POST!!!!



Lolol. Apparently a lot of things are not understood, especially basic genetics.
It's not a good post, it is a poorly written vomiting of something anyone could have learned from reading the Stratton books.
But let's go back to that whole genetics thing...
Class is in session. What color was Dibo, Bambi and Arizona Pete. They were all tan/buckskin dogs.
What color was Blind Billy?
He was a buckskin dog.
What color was Scrub?
He was red/buckskin.
Not only that, but the red/buckskin Dibo bred dogs were in the 40 lb range.

So tell me again where BLACK as night, 50 lber Eli and his ilk came from.
And when you do that, LOOK at the pictures, and tell me where the head and body came from too, because there is nothing in Eli that resembles anything in the Dibo dogs.
It's funny, because I was just having this conversation with someone else...

I will say this... Eli and Mayfield's Nigger DO resemble a certain other Tudor dog. Black Jack.
Go on and have a look at Black Jack and Black Jack Jr. Compare them with Eli and Nigger and then compare Eli and Nigger with Blind Billy and Dibo.

While you do this, remember your genetics. Where does the black come from. You can try to say it's from Black Shine, but don't forget, HE was bred to a red bitch. How do we know this? Her parents were Booger Red and Amber Girl.
Could Sherrer's Tammy then have been black?
Yes indeed, but do not forget her sire was the son of a dog named Red Man.
Could Candy, then have been black.
Again, possible, but with ALL THAT RED/BUCKSKIN/BROWN breeding... the likelihood if the dogs being black dwindle and dwindle and dwindle.

And then let's look at what was on Mr Boudreaux' yard... Black black black dogs. IF Candy was black, and produced the black Eli, who was then in and line bred on on Boudreaux' yard, there should have been many many many more buckskin eli dogs coming from his yard than black.
Now, I don't claim to know everything, and it is after 2:30 in the morning, but other than Art, where are the buckskin eli dogs?
Honeybunch doesn't count, we all know Bullyson wasn't her real sire, so again, where are the buckskin Eli dogs?

I honestly cannot think of any, but I do know of one odd color that pops up on Boudreaux' yard once in a while..
Blue.
Yup, staff blue is known to have popped up in those black black black Boudreaux dogs. Skull is known to have spit at least two, and they're not the only blues, Boudreaux has admitted this himself, but the other blues just didn't survive until double bred Skull dog Titan's Rook Ghost came around. Then yet another blue Boudreaux dog off Skull was born.

I have a reason for mentioning these mysterious blue Boudreaux dogs.
See, I believe the black Blind Billy dogs that mysteriously appeared and changed the look of a bloodline over night came from Black Jack, who I mentioned before. If you pull up the pictures of Black Jack, and Black Jack Jr, and Look at Eli and Nigger, you will see a MARKED resemblance.
What I think is that Tudor got a hold of some of his old Black Jack blood. Now if you know about the history of the breed, you will know that at that point in time, the strongest concentration of Black Jack was in staffs, specifically the Ruffian dogs.
And this is why I believe that on occasion, Boudreax dogs will throw blue.

As a little bit of fun, you may want to go have a look at Loposay Dot and Dubs...
Funny, but I never saw jet black Colby dogs that looked just like Eli dogs before or after those two dogs. And Bo looks nothing like them, nor does HE look like a Colby dog.
If Dot and Dubs are not off Eli blood, then they just might be off what was used to create Eli.

I am fully aware I may be way off base. But what I do know is that genetics make Eli's pedigree a lie, based on what he threw, and how his descendents produced. It was counter to how his ancestors produced. That just doesn't happen over night in one litter.

K


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:47 pm

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It is appreciated the interesting views of all of you, yes sir. Sorry for my bad english and could not understand everything, lol, lol.

Do not forget that genetics is complicated and whimsical, some times might seem even contradictory and therefore does not mean that will not be true.

“THE BLACKS”
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 11:59 pm

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berkley_160 wrote:

Already wrote:

WHAT'S ALREADY UNDERSTOOD DOESN'T NEED TO BE EXSPLAINED!! GREAT POST!!!!



Lolol. Apparently a lot of things are not understood, especially basic genetics.
It's not a good post, it is a poorly written vomiting of something anyone could have learned from reading the Stratton books.
But let's go back to that whole genetics thing...
Class is in session. What color was Dibo, Bambi and Arizona Pete. They were all tan/buckskin dogs.
What color was Blind Billy?
He was a buckskin dog.
What color was Scrub?
He was red/buckskin.
Not only that, but the red/buckskin Dibo bred dogs were in the 40 lb range.

So tell me again where BLACK as night, 50 lber Eli and his ilk came from.
And when you do that, LOOK at the pictures, and tell me where the head and body came from too, because there is nothing in Eli that resembles anything in the Dibo dogs.
It's funny, because I was just having this conversation with someone else...

I will say this... Eli and Mayfield's Nigger DO resemble a certain other Tudor dog. Black Jack.
Go on and have a look at Black Jack and Black Jack Jr. Compare them with Eli and Nigger and then compare Eli and Nigger with Blind Billy and Dibo.

While you do this, remember your genetics. Where does the black come from. You can try to say it's from Black Shine, but don't forget, HE was bred to a red bitch. How do we know this? Her parents were Booger Red and Amber Girl.
Could Sherrer's Tammy then have been black?
Yes indeed, but do not forget her sire was the son of a dog named Red Man.
Could Candy, then have been black.
Again, possible, but with ALL THAT RED/BUCKSKIN/BROWN breeding... the likelihood if the dogs being black dwindle and dwindle and dwindle.

And then let's look at what was on Mr Boudreaux' yard... Black black black dogs. IF Candy was black, and produced the black Eli, who was then in and line bred on on Boudreaux' yard, there should have been many many many more buckskin eli dogs coming from his yard than black.
Now, I don't claim to know everything, and it is after 2:30 in the morning, but other than Art, where are the buckskin eli dogs?
Honeybunch doesn't count, we all know Bullyson wasn't her real sire, so again, where are the buckskin Eli dogs?

I honestly cannot think of any, but I do know of one odd color that pops up on Boudreaux' yard once in a while..
Blue.
Yup, staff blue is known to have popped up in those black black black Boudreaux dogs. Skull is known to have spit at least two, and they're not the only blues, Boudreaux has admitted this himself, but the other blues just didn't survive until double bred Skull dog Titan's Rook Ghost came around. Then yet another blue Boudreaux dog off Skull was born.

I have a reason for mentioning these mysterious blue Boudreaux dogs.
See, I believe the black Blind Billy dogs that mysteriously appeared and changed the look of a bloodline over night came from Black Jack, who I mentioned before. If you pull up the pictures of Black Jack, and Black Jack Jr, and Look at Eli and Nigger, you will see a MARKED resemblance.
What I think is that Tudor got a hold of some of his old Black Jack blood. Now if you know about the history of the breed, you will know that at that point in time, the strongest concentration of Black Jack was in staffs, specifically the Ruffian dogs.
And this is why I believe that on occasion, Boudreax dogs will throw blue.

As a little bit of fun, you may want to go have a look at Loposay Dot and Dubs...
Funny, but I never saw jet black Colby dogs that looked just like Eli dogs before or after those two dogs. And Bo looks nothing like them, nor does HE look like a Colby dog.
If Dot and Dubs are not off Eli blood, then they just might be off what was used to create Eli.

I am fully aware I may be way off base. But what I do know is that genetics make Eli's pedigree a lie, based on what he threw, and how his descendents produced. It was counter to how his ancestors produced. That just doesn't happen over night in one litter.

K



One grey dog that did not live to maturity....
But inbred Mayfield dog
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:33 am

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Good boy "Piche" and a great representation of Eli/Carver dogs in nowadays.

Congratulations Juan Miguel, good job.



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:56 am

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villaliberty wrote:

It is appreciated the interesting views of all of you, yes sir. Sorry for my bad english and could not understand everything, lol, lol.

Do not forget that genetics is complicated and whimsical, some times might seem even contradictory and therefore does not mean that will not be true.

“THE BLACKS”
http://www.villaliberty.org/theblacks.html -- http://www.fiapbt.net/pedigreeyes.html



Genetics is not whimsical. Genetics is solid and complete SCIENTIFIC FACT. And it's not at all complicated. With the internet, things are much easier to learn and understand as well.

There is also picture evidence that shows that these dogs cannot be bred the way the pedigrees say they are. Again, I point out that Eli looks nothing like Scrub, looks nothing like Blind Billy, looks nothing like Dibo. Neither does Nigger. They both do, however, look more like Black Jack and specifically Black Jack Jr. Picture them with their ears uncropped. Black Jack up close would explain not just the color, but the size and the bite, NONE of which were present in the smaller "Dibo" type dogs.

I also postulate that the Loposay dogs were not Colby dogs. Nor was Bo, based on the thousands of Colby dogs that have been born in the past 100 years, not one of which looked anything like Bo, Dot or Dubs.
I also point out that even were I wrong, Bo being an in and line bred Colby dog SHOULD have produce uniform dogs in looks. None of his pups looks anything like the other.
When was the last Jeep dog you had that looked like a Colby dog?
They don't, they look like Honeybunch... Who does NOT look like a buckskin Eli dog... Honeybunch is truly the product of Maurice Carvers mad scientist machinations. I do believe that Honeybunch is off Carver's Amber. If you look at Carver's Cracker, the dog that is supposed to be Amber's sire, there is a clear resemblance. There are Honeybunch bred dogs today that look just like Cracker.
Now.. Tell me how many Honeybunch/Jeep bred dogs you know of that look like Ironhead, the supposed sire of Honeybunch according to some legends? I think it's more likely Honeybunch was double bred on Cracker than Ironhead was her sire.
In fact, Honeybunch is typical of what I call the "Dibo" type of dog, which is no surprise, since Cracker is a son of Dibo.

So Honeybunch is, in my belief, a true bred, pure bred Dibo dog. Not only does she look like dogs produced right off Dibo, but she looks like the dogs that produced Dibo, and she produced dogs that look like the dogs that produced Dibo. Look at the pictures of Corvino's Gimp and Shorty, and tell me you have not seen dogs that look exactly like those dogs bred off Jeep and Honeybunch. And remember when I was commenting on poor orphaned pedigree Finley's Bo who not only could not ever be a Colby dog, was unlikely to have been produced by the very Eli looking Dubs and Dot? Well.. Have a look at Tudor's Goldie in Dibo's pedigree. Compare her to Bo. Se the resemblance?
That would help to explain IF Bo was actually another hidden true Dibo dog, why the litter produced so well, and why Jeep stamped his pups that hard. Because hybrid dogs do NOT stamp their pups, they produce dogs that look like their mother, or their father.

Bullyson, Eli Jr, Eli, and Mayfield's Nigger are NOT Dibo dogs. But I do believe they are Tudor dogs and are instead of being based off the smaller BUCKSKIN Corvino based Dibo dogs, Tudo based it on some of his old Black Jack blood which produced Nigger and Eli, and the rest is history.

I do not claim that I am correct, all I have is a theory. I am putting together what I SEE from old pictures, and what I KNOW from genetics and coming up with proof that certain dogs could not have been bred the way their pedigree says. I believe there are two types of Tudor dogs.
One line is the true Dibo dogs, of which Honeybunch is one, and Jeep through her and possibly through his sire is another. They are represented today in the many Jeep and Honeybunch lines.
The other Tudor line is the Black Jack dogs represented through the black devil Boudreaux dogs starting with Eli, Eli Jr, and Bullyson, with a red/buckskin offshoot through Art, represented today through the Nigerino dogs.
The Nigger dogs I have to have a deeper look at because there is something interesting happening with them. They started black and quickly went red. Rock and a number of his offspring had white face markings like black and tan dogs, only it wasn't an at locus thing going on. I believe Brasken had the same thing happening. I do know there are a lot of red dogs coming from the Mayfield line more so than the Eli line and sometimes they look like red/buckskin Eli dogs... but most of the time they don't. Though I confess, even with my close proximity to the Rock dog, I have not studied Mayfield dogs the way I have more popular and interesting (to me) bloodlines.
It could well be that Mayfield had the true blend of red Corvino and black Black Jack dogs which would explain why they turned red quickly (or was it only the Kerner/Sofiakis dogs that did that?), and also why Mayfield would insist he had the purest of the pure old time blood. Well, if your base is Black Jack and the old Con Feeley blood, yeah, I think you can make that claim, lol.

Genetics do not lie, but all of this is of course, open to interpretation. Whatever the case may be, however these dogs were bred, the greatness of these dogs reverberate through the breed to this day. This is why though these dogs died before many of us were born, we are still talking about them.

K


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 1:42 am

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Very good and interesting points of view you have of course, but they are just points of views and as your well said, all of this is of course, open to interpretation of each one, but they are still hypotheses.

An experienced breeder, aware of the matter and whimsical to get his ideal of dogs in his taste, through selection breeding tool, he can get it in one or two nights and with lucky of course.

However in my opinion I still think, that although a breeder takes all his life breeding dogs and learning about genetic, every day he can keep learning many new issues related in genetics, never stop learning something that has no end.

For this and other reasons I think we should be more cautious in stating issues that we not know that be true, is just our opinion and hypothesis. I still think that genetics is complicated and whimsical, some times might seem even contradictory and therefore does not mean that will not be true.

Thank you very much for your time and interesting. Excuse my bad english.

Related with the issue:

- “THE BLACKS”
http://www.villaliberty.org/theblacks.html

- AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER WITH PEDIGREE ¿YES OR NO?
http://www.fiapbt.net/pedigreeyes.html



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:21 am

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I refuse to be cautious. I refuse to be responsible for anyone else's stupidity other than my own.
If I say something is my opinion and this is the reason I believe these things, and someone else chooses to take it as fact, that is their problem not mine.
Here is a quote for you. Well behaved women rarely make history. I am NOT a well behaved woman, and I have already made my mark on history, and I plan on leaving more.

If you subscribe to the theory of caution, you hold yourself back. The advances we have made in history have not been made by being cautious, but by boldly going forward, full bore and wide open, just like these dogs of ours.

And I also REFUSE to take something as fact because someone else said this is so. MORE people need to learn to THINK for themselves. That is what I do, and I come to my own truths, which are usually backed by evidence that says my truths are closer to being right than they are to being wrong.

I will state once more for the record that I believe that it is impossible for Eli to be bred that way, AND it is impossible for a whole bloodline to change overnight from small buckskin dogs to large black dogs. Is it beyond a reasonable doubt? No. But is it by the preponderance of the evidence? Yes. I can take my evidence to court and be reasonably sure I would win my case. The only thing that anyone who sticks to the given Eli pedigree has IS the pedigree. Everything else points to that pedigree being fake.

Of course if someone has something else other than the pedigree that proves the pedigree, I am willing to listen and see their point and maybe come to the conclusion I was wrong. I never said I was right, just that this is what I believe based on the evidence and my own common sense, and genetic knowledge.

Perhaps you see genetics that way because you do not understand them. But what we know of genetics, it's not whimsical, it's as sure as the sun will rise in the east and set in the west. Again, scientific fact. There is no room for whimsy. Sure genetics can throw up some surprises, and sure there are mutations, but they can be explained and they can be charted as to order of inheritance what locus it may be found on, and those things are set in stone.

Genetics may be another language to some people, but it is a language I am fluent in. No, we have not found or described all the genetic modifiers, but the genes and the genome is known. This is why you can have a two sire litter and correctly register puppies to the right sire. EVEN when the sires are full brothers. Because of fact.
Not whimsey.

K


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HISTORY ON ELI/CARVER (PAG 3)

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villaliberty
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